Should We Used Old Methods For Todays Problems

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

Far as I'm aware some wet UFH systems don,t need a 70mm screed over them, after testing they can have 10mm of fibre leveller over them, leave overnight then ditra and tile with flexi rapid set day after, can be grouted 3 hours after that.
I'm a new school tiler as only been at this 9 years so not picking holes in old methods i haven't ever used and unable to comment on but in my book that is progress

so its no quicker then .50mm is plenty 35 mm with ronafix run through the screed .
have you used your method or know any tilers that have .
or is this from ufh systems fixers .

 

[Just Rizzle]

I understand what your getting at Ray, like I say never used S&C for fixing tiles, when I started bagged addy was and still is for me the way and the price of it is what it is. Can't recall ever picking up a bag of cement and it states it can be used for fixing tiles to a wood or plasterboard substrate. I know this particular job hasn't got those issues but that's what modern flexible adhesives and uncoupling were invented for.
At a guess your customers daughters wedding probably won't be cheap either...imagine how happy she'll be doing the first dance on her dads lovely warm newly tiled floor regardless of the few hundred extra quid it cost to get it completed in time..just reread your first post and if the screed done next week you might just be able to finish sealing tiles on the morning of the wedding. Do it the new way and it'll be done and dusted before the Stagg do

 

[Spare Tool]

The wet systems I'm referring to are the type that use an overlayed board that the pipes slot into grooves cut in the boards and yes Ray I have used this method on them, quite a few times..it was webber technical that put me onto it. Not the UFH system manufacturers who IMO seem to think that you can just stick tiles to anything. I started a thread about a month ago on and if I remember correctly think it was Bri that also uses this method to cover the pipe work..

 

[Just Rizzle]

from start to finish its a 3 day job for me and my son
hes never done a floor this way so want to do it to show him how easy it can be .if the guy puts a anhydrite leveller down hes pushing it to have it ready by july 25th
ive give him a price ,and can fit him in end june and saving him money and stress hes already had a 7 week delay with his conservatory and the money I can save him will probably pay for the drinks bill

 

[Just Rizzle]

The wet systems I'm referring to are the type that use an overlayed board that the pipes slot into grooves cut in the boards and yes Ray I have used this method on them, quite a few times..it was webber technical that put me onto it. Not the UFH system manufacturers who IMO seem to think that you can just stick tiles to anything. I started a thread about a month ago on and if I remember correctly think it was Bri that also uses this method to cover the pipe work..

didn't you say the leveller was going to cost £1500 or was that some one else

 

[Spare Tool]

from start to finish its a 3 day job for me and my son
hes never done a floor this way so want to do it to show him how easy it can be .if the guy puts a anhydrite leveller down hes pushing it to have it ready by july 25th
ive give him a price ,and can fit him in end june and saving him money and stress hes already had a 7 week delay with his conservatory and the money I can save him will probably pay for the drinks bill

I never mentioned an anhydrite leveller. At least 10mm Fibre reinforced leveller, ditra and tile next day?
So have a got this right to pay for a round or two of drinks your going to fix limestone using S&C straight on to UFH pipes, wait(how long) then switch the heating on...braver man than me

 

[Spare Tool]

didn't you say the leveller was going to cost £1500 or was that some one else

Wasn't me...roughly at 10mm you get a sqm per bag

 

[Just Rizzle]

I never mentioned an anhydrite leveller. At least 10mm Fibre reinforced leveller, ditra and tile next day?
So have a got this right to pay for a round or two of drinks your going to fix limestone using S&C straight on to UFH pipes, wait(how long) then switch the heating on...braver man than me

the ufh is going in this week and will be fully tested befor the screeding starts the ufh is covered with a layer of sand this acts as the decoupling then a dpm layed on top of the sand then we screed and bed in the tiles
your not getting my point being a slave to the likes of tops and ctd when you can do it at a 20th of the price and make far more profit .
its profit to cost at the end of the day
a 33mtr floor at a depth of 70 mm is 2,5 qubic mts

 

[Spare Tool]

the ufh is going in this week and will be fully tested befor the screeding starts the ufh is covered with a layer of sand this acts as the decoupling then a dpm layed on top of the sand then we screed and bed in the tiles
your not getting my point being a slave to the likes of tops and ctd when you can do it at a 20th of the price and make far more profit .
its profit to cost at the end of the day
a 33mtr floor at a depth of 70 mm is 2,5 qubic mts

Get your point totally Ray...i make dam near all my profit on labour and only add about 20% to trade price on materials I supply. I supply good quality materials at a price a lot cheaper than the customer can buy them without a trade account, if you've ever bought from tile giant they mark up customer prices by going on 100% so through me they save 80% and it's the customer that's paying in the end not me.
Am certainly not having a go or trinna get your back up regarding profit to cost, I'm genuinely interested on your take on it... so if your supplying the sand/cement etc how can you mark that up to turn out more of a profit than I do on a bag of rapid set or leveller, to me your not gonna make any more in materials than I do? Your just simply doing the job far more cheaper than I would be yet still probably making roughly the same in labour..

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

from start to finish its a 3 day job for me and my son
hes never done a floor this way so want to do it to show him how easy it can be .if the guy puts a anhydrite leveller down hes pushing it to have it ready by july 25th
ive give him a price ,and can fit him in end june and saving him money and stress hes already had a 7 week delay with his conservatory and the money I can save him will probably pay for the drinks bill

its good to pass this on as you can show how you can screed and lay 30 m2 in a day with the two of you should be an easy lay the way some go on you would think you need a whole team with arms like grillas and you would be working all night i hope you can post some pics at each stage for the none beleavers who still havent worked out that they can use the tubs left over from there day to day adhesive to knock up bag adhesive in

 

[Just Rizzle]

Get your point totally Ray...i make dam near all my profit on labour and only add about 20% to trade price on materials I supply. I supply good quality materials at a price a lot cheaper than the customer can buy them without a trade account, if you've ever bought from tile giant they mark up customer prices by going on 100% so through me they save 80% and it's the customer that's paying in the end not me.
Am certainly not having a go or trinna get your back up regarding profit to cost, I'm genuinely interested on your take on it... so if your supplying the sand/cement etc how can you mark that up to turn out more of a profit than I do on a bag of rapid set or leveller, to me your not gonna make any more in materials than I do? Your just simply doing the job far more cheaper than I would be yet still probably making roughly the same in labour..

 

[Just Rizzle]

no because the material cost has gone down I am able to charge more for my labour because hes saving on having screeders come in dosnt need crack mat and adhesives etc im quoting him on a full package because my skills are now rare im getting nearly double my usual rate and its working out cheaper for him than what the conservatory company is quoting him. I haven't got the job yet but going to price a job tomorrow for an old client of mine who may have to take priority as its about 200 mts on to anhydrate and 4 bathrooms.
.

 

[Old Mod]

Far as I'm aware some wet UFH systems don,t need a 70mm screed over them, after testing they can have 10mm of fibre leveller over them, leave overnight then ditra and tile with flexi rapid set day after, can be grouted 3 hours after that.
I'm a new school tiler as only been at this 9 years so not picking holes in old methods i haven't ever used and unable to comment on but in my book that is progress

I had a scenario last year where Polypipe overlay UFH (cement board pipe inlay) was used and and the screed was so badly laid it was from +18 to -5mm out of level. I spoke in depth to both Polypipe and Schluter and Polypipe insisted that a liquid product like latex could not be used straight over their system, that it had to be boarded out first, however, they said if it had been laid to a flat surface I could just tiled straight over usin adhesive. I'm not disputing what you're saying but do you know what systems allow the latex on their product?

 

[Spare Tool]

I had a scenario last year where Polypipe overlay UFH (cement board pipe inlay) was used and and the screed was so badly laid it was from +18 to -5mm out of level. I spoke in depth to both Polypipe and Schluter and Polypipe insisted that a liquid product like latex could not be used straight over their system, that it had to be boarded out first, however, they said if it had been laid to a flat surface I could just tiled straight over usin adhesive. I'm not disputing what you're saying but do you know what systems allow the latex on their product?

No is the simple answer to that question, I can't name every UFH system I've tiled on but Webber advised it so I followed there advice and it's not let me down...

 

[Old Mod]

No is the simple answer to that question, I can't name every UFH system I've tiled on but Webber advised it so I followed there advice and it's not let me down...

As I said truly not disputing your methods or what u are saying, just keen to know. Boarding the Polypipe first before latex was a nightmare, even tho I'd marked exactly where all the pipes were on the Hardie I still stressed about clipping a pipe when it was screwed down. So being able to latex straight over would be a god send.
So the adhesive company gave u the instruction on latexing over the UFH not the UFH company itself, and u've employed this method every time? Regardless of the UFH system? I'm not digging u out! I just want to be clear how u came by the information, that's all.
Cheers.

 

[Spare Tool]

As I said truly not disputing your methods or what u are saying, just keen to know. Boarding the Polypipe first before latex was a nightmare, even tho I'd marked exactly where all the pipes were on the Hardie I still stressed about clipping a pipe when it was screwed down. So being able to latex straight over would be a god send.
So the adhesive company gave u the instruction on latexing over the UFH not the UFH company itself, and u've employed this method every time? Regardless of the UFH system? I'm not digging u out! I just want to be clear how u came by the information, that's all.
Cheers.

I have to tile onto the JG speedfit ufh system this week infact its being laid as I type...there spec sheet insists the pipework must be covered in a suitable 'floating' ply or 'floating' knauff brillo board.
I rang webber tech this morning and they said under no circumstances would they advise tiling onto a floating ply fitted over ufh and again insisted the pipes should be covered in 10mm of fibre flex leveller. I personally agree with webber on this and not the ufh manufacturer, can't get my head round tiling on floating ply..so that's the way I'm going to do the job, after levelling will be uncoupling before the tiles go down. Found this on the net...

Tiling onto under-floor heating pipes (solid substrates)


Piped heating systems are buried in reinforced cement/sand floating screeds of not less than 65mm thick. If a polymer-modified levelling screed is used it must cover the pipes by a minimum of 10mm. Weber's highly polymermodified adhesives and grouts have enough flexibility to accommodate thermally-induced movement.

Stage 1: Preparation

The heating pipes should be installed according to manufacturer's instructions, fixed down and tested prior to being encapsulated in a screed or levelling compound.

If the pipes have been laid in a reinforced cement/sand screed this must be allowed to dry fully prior to tiling. A sand/cement screed should be left for 3 weeks with the under-floor heating off to dry. After this period the heating system should be turned on and raised by a maximum of 5°C/day until the maximum recommended operating temperature is achieved. This temperature should be maintained for 3 days and then the system turned off and the screed allowed to cool to 15°C before tiling commences.

If weber.floor flex levelling compound is used to cover the pipes instead of a cement/sand screed, the drying time will be considerably shorter.

Ensure that the cured surface of the floor is rigid, sound, clean, dry and free from any contaminating barrier. Prime with weber PR360 and allow to dry.

 

[Old Mod]

That looks really interesting thank you.
I'm driving at the moment but I will read it when I get home (I'm dictating into my phone if you're wondering)

 

[J Sid]

I wonder what the cost different is between the Weber +10mm and the sand and cement a 65mm total thickness?
I my be doing a floor with Isocrete Self Level Renovation over wet ufh, anyone come across it? Walk on in 2 to 4 hours, 48 hours fully dry .

 

[Spare Tool]

I wonder what the cost different is between the Weber +10mm and the sand and cement a 65mm total thickness?
I my be doing a floor with Isocrete Self Level Renovation over wet ufh, anyone come across it? Walk on in 2 to 4 hours, 48 hours fully dry .

I'm sure its a lot more expensive, I know what I pay a bag and get roughly 1-1.5 sqm at 10mm out of a bag of leveller. never bought or priced up or screeded with S&C. sure Ray will better advise on that..

 

[Old Mod]

I have to tile onto the JG speedfit ufh system this week infact its being laid as I type...there spec sheet insists the pipework must be covered in a suitable 'floating' ply or 'floating' knauff brillo board.
I rang webber tech this morning and they said under no circumstances would they advise tiling onto a floating ply fitted over ufh and again insisted the pipes should be covered in 10mm of fibre flex leveller. I personally agree with webber on this and not the ufh manufacturer, can't get my head round tiling on floating ply..so that's the way I'm going to do the job, after levelling will be uncoupling before the tiles go down.

So does that not beg the question, who's to be blamed in the event of a failure?
You? Weber? UFH company?
Personally I'm with you! (I don't mean u should be blamed haha) Your method sounds far safer.
But why a floating ply, d'u know why?
Sorry more questions than answers.
In my own Experiance last year to get everyone on board I had to firstly fix the Polypipe down as best I could, ordinarily it's a loose lay system with the board edges glued together. Polypipe insisted that all levelling should take place prior installation, but it wasn't. Then under normal circumstances just tile straight over it. Once the UFH was fixed down I was then to overboard with a cement board or similar, basically something inert. Then I could level with latex, which I did, 34 bags for 43m2 ouch! Ditra and tile, that was the only way I could get a thumbs up from everyone.
So I'm not sure I'm any the wiser haha
But Nxt time this arises I'll have a lot more questions for tech departments.

 

[Spare Tool]

'conformity is the jailer of freedom' my friend

I guess if it all goes for a sh*t then it'll be down to me BUT and its the old cliche' that everyone loves...'been doing it that way for years and never had a problem' and I think in this instance compared to floating ply(and no I havn't a clue why) but think there's far less chance of a problem occuring, I mean really 'what could go wrong'
Ran my suggestions by the site manager on this one and he agrees with me, think it'd be wise to get that call in writing.

 

[Old Mod]

'conformity is the jailer of freedom' my friend

I guess if it all goes for a sh*t then it'll be down to me BUT and its the old cliche' that everyone loves...'been doing it that way for years and never had a problem' and I think in this instance compared to floating ply(and no I havn't a clue why) but think there's far less chance of a problem occuring, I mean really 'what could go wrong'
Ran my suggestions by the site manager on this one and he agrees with me, think it'd be wise to get that call in writing.

Yeah not trying to freak u out or anything, just genuinely interested. It's a bit of a quandary for sure.
I'd be genuinely interested how u get on with this one, to see if anyone will stand by their method and give u a written method statement, not so sure that'll happen tho
Thanks for the info so far, it's been interesting.

 

[Spare Tool]

I'll try and get some sort of disclaimer in writing off somebody...hopefully
I'd be interested on Bri's take on this as he did mention in another post this is also a method he uses..
Bri??

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

Get your point totally Ray...i make dam near all my profit on labour and only add about 20% to trade price on materials I supply. I supply good quality materials at a price a lot cheaper than the customer can buy them without a trade account, if you've ever bought from tile giant they mark up customer prices by going on 100% so through me they save 80% and it's the customer that's paying in the end not me.
Am certainly not having a go or trinna get your back up regarding profit to cost, I'm genuinely interested on your take on it... so if your supplying the sand/cement etc how can you mark that up to turn out more of a profit than I do on a bag of rapid set or leveller, to me your not gonna make any more in materials than I do? Your just simply doing the job far more cheaper than I would be yet still probably making roughly the same in labour..

Get your point totally Ray...i make dam near all my profit on labour and only add about 20% to trade price on materials I supply. I supply good quality materials at a price a lot cheaper than the customer can buy them without a trade account, if you've ever bought from tile giant they mark up customer prices by going on 100% so through me they save 80% and it's the customer that's paying in the end not me.
Am certainly not having a go or trinna get your back up regarding profit to cost, I'm genuinely interested on your take on it... so if your supplying the sand/cement etc how can you mark that up to turn out more of a profit than I do on a bag of rapid set or leveller, to me your not gonna make any more in materials than I do? Your just simply doing the job far more cheaper than I would be yet still probably making roughly the same in labour..

I'm sure its a lot more expensive, I know what I pay a bag and get roughly 1-1.5 sqm at 10mm out of a bag of leveller. never bought or priced up or screeded with S&C. sure Ray will better advise on that..

it should work out about £6.30 m2 including sand cement adhesive slurry cement sbr at 65mm deep depends on your discounts

 

[Rizzle from the Portizzle]

listern tilers have been used as test dummys for years bring out a new product test in lab bring to site until the tilers have worked it out how it realy works it destroys some along the way but they dont care your just anther test dummy lambs to the slauter i was asked about this kind of lay the other day and sat down with the client and told him this was still in the learning prosese lucky he sell a lot of the products you use day to day so new what i was telling him so any way he is going to lay 120 m2 of flooring straight on these pipes so this is what we decided would be the best test

1 laytex over the piping with fibra renifoced laytex securing the piping and filling in the voids bring in flush with the pipe inlay

2 cover with a decoupler

3 laytex over decouplar with fibra reninfoced laytex 8 to 10 mm

4 now cover with decouplar again

5 now fix tiles with flexable adhesive

6 the thinking behind this is that it allows movement between the pipes the laytex and the tiles
we all agree that this is a £9000 exsperament but he wants to know as much as me will this work