Some people are having a laugh with their pricing

[Yorkshire Tiling Services]

Wanted the work and would have been willing to travel. I have had my share of snotty pm s off members and never complained.
Still understood, as you wish. This really got to me, sorry.

 

[The D]

The talk of current market rates being low does not wash with me.. people offering and expecting tiling done for such scandalously low prices only get them because tilers are prepared to take on the jobs. Pity there is not a tilers trade union, with an agreement not to drop below a certain price. We ( they ) are perpetuating this. i have been guilty of taking on lower paid work when things have been quiet, but realise now that this is not the way forward. This pricing really takes the biscuit for me.
NOBODY qualified in their right mind should agree to undertake 600 x 600 wall tiling at this price per metre... this is the very bottom end for fixing 6 x 6 whites onto walls.Perhaps it would be better if tilers offered to pay him for the priveledge of taking on the work.
I enquired about another job in Preston on Forum, plenty of metres to go at, floor tiling,guy was offering £80.00 per day,day rate.
Apparently some of the tilers he had used were fixing 8 metres per day and he was not happy & under pressure from client.
I am not surprised.
I know that prices are generally higher nationwide, it is just that as the lower you get down the food chain, everyone wants to make a few quid by subbing it out.Poor guy that sticks em on floor ends up with monkey nuts.

The thing is m8 there are tilers out there that can still just about make that price pay. They will not get rich of the job but they will pay there bills. If you do not want or need the work good for you but I am confident there will be someone out there glad of it.

 

[Yorkshire Tiling Services]

We are all glad of work... but seriously low pricing under values us all.We are self employed to actually make a profit,not scratch around in the dirt to make a living.Low pricing affects us all in the long run.I am happy to stick my neck out and make a stand.
If you wish to condone this then it is your choice. I would rather upset members and make a point, than not say anything......
If this downward spiral of low pricing were to continue with the current recession and general state of the bulilding trade, where would you draw the line ?
£10
£9
£8
£7
£6
£5
£4
£3
£2
£1 .. a metre ?
Yes someone would be glad of the work, but at what price ? Someone is making a profit on the job, but it sure isn't the tiler who spends a week on his hands and knees. You may think I am being harsh,or outspoken... yes I am. I am just wanting to try and protect our trade.Where is the cut off point ? Somewhere down the line we have to make a stand.
Regards no offence meant.

 

[Yorkshire Tiling Services]

Minimum wage tilers ? Is that where we want to be ?

 

[Daz]

I've only skimmed this thread,
But I agree that "tiling" is being under priced by some "tradesmen".
If a quality tiler is able to achieve a sensible price, then why get stressed? This only becomes an issue if you are struggling for work and losing out to the guys that think they can tile.

Daz

 

[The D]

don’t get me wrong no one is happy about the prices going down. But the developers and the builders were not happy about them going up about 10 to 15 years ago but they had no choice but to pay the price we were dictating as they needed the work done and there was not enough tilers to go around. In the last 10 to 15 years there are more tilers coming in to the industry than ever before and the wheels have fallen of the housing market, so for the moment we do not dictate the prices the people with the work do, that is just the way it goes.

 

[Stef]

I understand the arguments here to try & protect our trade but as i already stated (more joking though) someone will take that job on.
I have seen it happening with the brickies & joiners over the past year or 2 that they are working for less & less.

A job like that i know i could still make money from it. its a double edged sword, you dont want to work for that low a price but if you dont have work & you have bills to pay then what would you really do to feed your family?

I hate it when i see our livelyhood getting devalued like this but until the housing market picks up then i think we are stuck with it.

 

[Perry]

600 x 600 on walls will be porcelain perhaps they will be all full tiles no cuts on perfect walls ? yes i saw the prices to

 

[Perry]

I've only skimmed this thread,
But I agree that "tiling" is being under priced by some "tradesmen".
If a quality tiler is able to achieve a sensible price, then why get stressed? This only becomes an issue if you are struggling for work and losing out to the guys that think they can tile.

Daz

Yes Daz but our customers think they can tile and we are all charging to much

 

[Deleted member 9966]

Minimum wage tilers ? Is that where we want to be ?

people do manage to live on minimum wage in the UK Nick. £6.08 per hour currently for anybody over 21 years old. Don't forget, customers have less money in their pockets just like you. Everybody is being squeezed from every angle. Eventually customers will realise that they only get what they pay for. Instead of banging your head against the wall about prices and rates being squeezed, try putting your energy into drumming up more business for yourself that pays the rate you need. There have been forum members on here that have put tiling to one side for a while in order to earn a steady wage doing something else. Times are hard and people make tough decisions about what they need to do to keep a roof over their heads.

my husband is quitting his job at the end of the year. he sells cars and vans on lease finance and earns about 18k a year. by the start of January he will be a full time house husband looking after our son, and will work part time in the evenings earning minimum wage to bring in a bit of extra cash. we spent the last 2 years clearing all of our debt and credit cards to get the household finances to a point where we can survive on one full time wage. we have accepted that this current economic climate is not a time to try and get rich. we used to have brand new cars every 2-3 years, we've got a nice house, we used to spend money on eating out 3-4 times a week, but we've changed our lifestyle so that we don't have to be earning loads of money to be able to afford nice things.

forget about what rates you're being offered and concentrate on finding the rates of pay you're willing to work for. otherwise you'll become disillusioned with your profession and become far more miserable than you are at the moment.

 

[widler]

there will always be people undercutting other trades,its the way of the country at the mo,BUT,the cream will float to the top.

thousands of people countrywide are struggling,my wife who was going great guns 3 years ago has just had to make 2 of her staff redundent,not only were they here staff,but one was here sister in law and the other a mate of mine,hard times,she aint taken a full wage for 2 years,to keep these people in work.
all im saying is needs must,they are hard times,and could be harder to come,so some people need to stop moaning and get on with it,if you are good at your job,it will come back,just got to weather the storm.

 

[IvegotsTILE]

I have a friend who is a good joiner and has had hardly any work for 2 years and he told me the other day he's labouring for a tiler whoose company is in Northampton and that the tiler is getting 12 sqm,I personally think its too low but apparently the guys that quick he can earn a decent wage on it,not sure how good the quality is though.I recently got told of a job in my town where someone was travelling 50 miles a day for 12sqm including addhesive. I thought that was unbelievable but I've also heard about a builder wanting work done for 10 sqm. I've never worked below 20 sqm and have always been fairly busy.

 

[andy8758]

Wow some really angry feelings around this topic. Hope everyone remembers the importance of protecting their profession, living standards and family in the coming months of strike and unrest from public sector.

We are all working in the private sector - doing our trades in a "marketplace." It works on the sheer dynamics of "supply and demand" and nothing we can say and do will change that. My son is in the general building trade - he tells me the "market price" in our area for (private contract) bricklaying is about £1 per brick, £2 per block. He reckons he can work with another brickie and lay 1600 blocks of straight walling in a week - course thats as easy to find as 1000 sq m of uncut floor tiling! But in this area, building work has picked up and so have the prices - for how long is anyones guess. But it seems there are simply not enough brickies for the demand at the moment. I am also being offered straight labouring work at £80-100 per day when not tiling, but not sure my body is fit enough for too much of that!

Tiling has become so much more diverse in recent years, not just ceramic 6 inch tiles but shower room tiling, natural stone tiling, mosaic feature tiling, polished porcelain, geometeric restoration, under floor heating and so on. There appears now a clear division between some tiling specialists, and general building tiling. The real trade tilers I am talking to around here are finding themselves fitting lighted alcoves in bathroom tiled walls, book matched marble walling, mosaic curved wall bathrooms - they are keeping their prices high by offering services that the builders tilers wont touch. Some of them are held in very high regard and get routinely called in by local architect/builders to create specialised features - and the high prices get paid without quibble. There is also a clear market for the "bathroom specialists" who fit the complete bathroom as well as being able to cope with all the specialised features being demanded in private bathrooms. Everytime I visit local tiling shops it seems there are several of these guys around telling me how much well paid work they have on at the moment.

The moral of my post is that we may not like the way the market is, but we have to work in it. So I believe that we have to be creative, flexible, and focused, as well as bringing skill, experience and value to the table.

As to the suggestion of a Tilers Union - maybe not necessarily a bad idea, but the profession certainly lacks a a craftsmans organisation - I think the TTA is too "Industry Focused." Here we all are on a very active Professional Tradesmans Forum - so Dave - ever thought of getting some of the others together to form something like "The Guild of Professional Tile Fixers" or "The Federation of Master Tilers" - it probably needs a lot of co-operative efforts from several other active posters (Sir Ramic, GRR, Phil Hobson, Deano, Doug B and a few others - no disrespect to those not named) but it could become very influential in changing the outlook of the Building Indistry to our profession.

 

[Pebbs]

I read through this yesterday, and have just done so again. I will say this much on the subject, and its the role of the main contractor and builder, and what they are imposing on sub-contractors these days. We all know that times have been hard lately, however the rates have dropped till basically they cannot drop anymore imo. Do I ever see main contractors drop their premiums for work the sub-contractor has done...trust me they dont. How many times have we ALL had phone calls saying .....I got your quote and if you can drop your price by 40% the contract is yours. Well the way I look at is like this...' I'll tell you what, how about I come round and drop a big fat envelope of cash of with you' because thats effectively what I'll be doing by knocking 40% of the quoted price. If some monkey has gone in wanting to do it for peanuts take it!

You all know what your profit margins are, you all know what work you have lined up, if your desperate for work and your going to make a little on the job, do it. If you really know in your heart of hearts you have a bad feeling about taking work on that you will make hardly anything...walk away.

I saw a 'monkey' on Friday morning working next door on one of my contracts, he was ripping the floor up because it had just been condemned by the surveyor, cheap is, cheap gets.

Lynn

 

[Yorkshire Tiling Services]

Have been working away in Dublin, just got back so have only skimmed thread, will read later in detail..
As the job in question is termed as commercial, and is being advertised by another tiler.....
This appears to be a food chain price, as with shop fitting
Company wants tiling and other work doing and employs main contractor or shop fitter
Shop fitter sub contracts work to various companies...
These companies undertake works and often use sub contractors themselves.. this sometimes gets subbed out again
Each time the price per metre goes down, the lower you get in the food chain. As each contractor / sub contractor is wanting to make some ££

In commercial work it is not always true that the money is not there. The job in Dublin was a JD Sports store.. I am not willing to disclose where I am in the food chain, but do know how much JD Spend on re-furbing their stores, they are currently buying shops left right and centre all over the UK and Ireland. They spend a fortune on these shops..
The same can be said generally for many commercial jobs. More often the guys at the hard end of the job, working away,nights, long days pay the price both physically and financially, whilst the ones higher up are sat at home counting their ££

ALSO FACT..
The price you get also depends on your relationship with your contractor and your bargaining power..
There were all trades on job... many or most were on day rate, we all talk on site. The difference between our rates, and if digs and fuel were included, and what type of digs you got if paid was frightening.
My digs were paid up front http://www.carltonhotelblanchardstown.com/
Fuel was sorted prior, as was ferry crossing.

Some guys were in cheap B & B, and had to pay their own digs and fuel up front, and were on a much lower rate than others.. they were subbies of subbies.

These companies NEED US.. otherwise they cannot continue, they have the money to pay, but would prefer to keep in in their bank and not ours.

 

[Deleted member 9966]

so what are you moaning about exactly Nick? you got the job, you're getting paid and your keeping a roof over your family's head. have I missed your point?

 

[Colour Republic]

It seems you NEED THEM Nick. Either you've got the contacts and resources to win these contracts direct or you haven't and you're lower down in the food chain. Everybody in that chain has a responsibility to someone else, they take the risk and take their cut for it, if you think the pay off is too little for the risk you bail out. You say you don't want to disclose where you are in the food chain so if you're not at the bottom then does that mean you've subbed it out too? Is that not the same thing?

Of course negotiation plays a part in it, you wanted more than others and you got it. So what now? You go round causing bad feeling by telling the others you're on more. If the others hadn't of accepted a low price there wouldn't have been enough in the pot to pay you want you wanted. It's been like this since the dawn of time, it's nothing new.

It's supply and demand and with commercial meterage rates you either make it work or you don't. If you can't make it pay you change your business or you move markets.

It's one thing getting undercut by a chancer in the domestic market it's something completely different in the commercial sector.

 

[The D]

Have been working away in Dublin, just got back so have only skimmed thread, will read later in detail..
As the job in question is termed as commercial, and is being advertised by another tiler.....
This appears to be a food chain price, as with shop fitting
Company wants tiling and other work doing and employs main contractor or shop fitter
Shop fitter sub contracts work to various companies...
These companies undertake works and often use sub contractors themselves.. this sometimes gets subbed out again
Each time the price per metre goes down, the lower you get in the food chain. As each contractor / sub contractor is wanting to make some ££

In commercial work it is not always true that the money is not there. The job in Dublin was a JD Sports store.. I am not willing to disclose where I am in the food chain, but do know how much JD Spend on re-furbing their stores, they are currently buying shops left right and centre all over the UK and Ireland. They spend a fortune on these shops..
The same can be said generally for many commercial jobs. More often the guys at the hard end of the job, working away,nights, long days pay the price both physically and financially, whilst the ones higher up are sat at home counting their ££

ALSO FACT..
The price you get also depends on your relationship with your contractor and your bargaining power..
There were all trades on job... many or most were on day rate, we all talk on site. The difference between our rates, and if digs and fuel were included, and what type of digs you got if paid was frightening.
My digs were paid up front Carlton Hotel Blanchardstown | Formerly Plaza Hotel in Tyrrelstown | Dublin Hotel
Fuel was sorted prior, as was ferry crossing.

Some guys were in cheap B & B, and had to pay their own digs and fuel up front, and were on a much lower rate than others.. they were subbies of subbies.

These companies NEED US.. otherwise they cannot continue, they have the money to pay, but would prefer to keep in in their bank and not ours.

WOW you have really opened my eyes m8 and I am very impressed with how far you are up the food chain. You must have a fantastic relationship with the contractor to command such luxuries’ accommodation. I only hope one day I can be as well respected as you are.

 

[nybor62]

the tiles are 600x300 ceramics, ive spoke with them

 

[Yorkshire Tiling Services]

WOW you have really opened my eyes m8 and I am very impressed with how far you are up the food chain. You must have a fantastic relationship with the contractor to command such luxuries’ accommodation. I only hope one day I can be as well respected as you are.

LOL, I guess your reply was tongue in cheek ?
This was not meant as a boast or anything like that, was just trying to illustrate that the money is still out there, tradesmen should not be constantly screwed down on price and always accept it. Have no intention of posting my rates, but they are nowhere near £11 per metre.
I work for another company and know that they will always try to pay low rates where possible, but will pay more, they have numerous tilers on the books, some of whom I know.All command different rates for same work.If these tilers sub their work out then their subbies get even less.
Nothing to do with recession, but other peoples profit margins

 

[doug boardley]

pen pushers....then, pen pushers..then pen pushers.then penpushers...all leaving a paper trail to try and justify their salaries. Reminds me once of when I was on a site and I had no Hi-Viz vest on, site meeting and a site visit and I was asked where my Hi-Viz was, I replied that all 3 were in the washing machine as they were dirty,,,,unlike all yours that never see any dirt in the site cabin!

 

[The D]

LOL, I guess your reply was tongue in cheek ?
This was not meant as a boast or anything like that, was just trying to illustrate that the money is still out there, tradesmen should not be constantly screwed down on price and always accept it. Have no intention of posting my rates, but they are nowhere near £11 per metre.
I work for another company and know that they will always try to pay low rates where possible, but will pay more, they have numerous tilers on the books, some of whom I know.All command different rates for same work.If these tilers sub their work out then their subbies get even less.
Nothing to do with recession, but other peoples profit margins

:lol::lol::lol:Yes m8 a little bit tongue in cheek it is just I have been playing this game for a long time.

 

[Yorkshire Tiling Services]

Just an example...
One firm I work for ..
Some jobs are repair jobs,one or two nights working away,they pay digs and fuel. There was a big commotion a couple of months ago because my mate mentioned to another tiler ( who I knew, but he didn't ) about how much we got for a certain job working nights in London. This guy also does work for same firm.
When he found out we both got £250 each for a nights work, plus fuel he went ballistic and was straight on phone to company..
His rates were less for same work. Just seems to be the way it is.He was right to do so, but he agreed his rates ! We just stood by our guns and negotiated better !!

 

[Colour Republic]

And do you still do work for that firm now you dropped them in it???

I pay all my guys different day rates as they are worth different amounts to me. If somebody is worth £80 a day that's what they get, if they can turn it on and they are worth £500 a day that is what they will get. I really don't care what they earn as long as they are worth it and I can bill it.

 

[Yorkshire Tiling Services]

And do you still do work for that firm now you dropped them in it???

I pay all my guys different day rates as they are worth different amounts to me. If somebody is worth £80 a day that's what they get, if they can turn it on and they are worth £500 a day that is what they will get. I really don't care what they earn as long as they are worth it and I can bill it.

You miss my point completely... these guys are worth the money, however in this game you will many a time get squeezed down to lowest price by people who are wanting to make a profit on your hard work without lifting a finger.
How many people do you pay £500 a day ? not many / if any me thinks !
I give up on this one. Was only trying to make a point that this low commercial pricing thing absolutely stinks !! we know that the money is out there, it just goes in peoples back pockets and not in the tilers who, is doing the graft.
My last post on subject, really can't be bothered any more.