Tiling on a suspended floor

[paul flight]

doug is right . get hold of the builder tell him what you want done at no cost to you . if he is any good he will do this work . tell him you want a experienced tiler to do the work. you have paid a lot for this to be right.! be strong and dont take no for a answer .. in fact put it in writing to him so that he knows that you have done your home work on this on .. which he did not.

 

[Sukie666]

Mikethetile - don't think we can go for the 25mm unless we take the kitchen apart. What is the purpose of the noggins and do they sit on the joist?
thanks

 

[mikethetile]

they sit between the joists and prevent sideways movement

you cut 6x2 to fit tightly between the joists and fix them in a row, you then wedge at either end between wall and joist,this takes all the spring out of the floor

the kitchen will need to be removed to do this work

theres no point in tiling over boards that have been sealed with pva as the water in the adhesive reactivates the pva preventing the adhesive from bonding to the substrate, one option if there is no deflection in the floor is to stick and mechanicly fix backer board to the ply and tile on that, this will raise the floor by about 6mm

the issue with that is if theres any deflection in the floor. try bouncing in the middle of the floor on the balls of your feet and see if you can feel any bounce or give

 

[grumpygrouter]

Just as an aside to previous advice, if you go down the route of using BAL adhesives on to the ply then BAL DO NOT recommend priming the tiling face of the ply and if you do it would invalidate their warranty (which isn't up to much for domestics anyway!)

 

[DHTiling]

Hi..

Sorry you have such a bad installation..

You would be wise to get an independent assessment of the job in hand.

The builders have not followed uk standards BS 5385 and the fixing method is totally wrong..

You are not in the wrong here and should not be paying for extra tiles or materials .

IMO all the tiles will eventually fail due the method and prep used... you did the right thing coming to a tiling forum rather than ebuild as we specialise in this sort of advice.

PVA is not a recognised primer for tiling and really on that spec of timber floor an S2 highly flexible adhesive should have been used.

Please contact the builder ASAP and stress your concerns highly... but an independent report will back your concerns up..

 

[The Legend; Phil Hobson RIP]

Hi Sukie, As Dave says above. Why should you incur any extra costs, this job does not conform to BS 5385. The builder should rectify bad code of practice faults ie. PVA dot and dab etc. I would pursue him through the courts if I were you. If he had adhered to the correct methods, you would not be in this position. Good luck, and let us know how you get on

 

[Sukie666]

So I can't reuse the current ply? No one has mentioned that before. That would complicates things enormously. There is a fair amount of flex in the floor. You see it bounce a bit if you are heavy footed when walking. Obviously it would be difficult to replace the ply without removing the kitchen. But with the kitchen stretching 7 meters long (L shape) with a composite worksurface and glass splashback throughout + a large island - impossible.

Does anyone else agree with this? Can I negate the effect of the PVA somehow?

Though not guaranteed, I was encouraged to hear Doug's thought on my option 2 with the ditra mat for extra support. Now I am very concerned again. As it stands, would anyone recommend lifting the tiles and replace it with an engineered wooden floor?

Dave & Phil, I know I shouldn't have to pay for any of this, but trying to get the builder back to do anything has been close to impossible. I have considered going down the legal route but having spoken to a number of friends and other people who has had problems with builders - the consensus is it's not worth the bother. No one i have spoken to has ever got anything money back from the courts.

What to do, what to do........my dream kitchen is now a nightmare.

 

[mikethetile]

if you can feel the deflection then any tiling job is going to fail, your builders should have gone through this with you at the time and resolve it before tiling

its a difficult one this, engineered wood is not the best in a kitchen as water ingress will damage it over time, tiles are the best option but will require a lot of prep now to put right.another option is Karndean

you chose and paid for a tiled floor and really you should get what you paid your builder for. problem is if you let your builder away with this you lose out and yet another builder gets away with it

we can help you through this

 

[doug boardley]

So I can't reuse the current ply? No one has mentioned that before. That would complicates things enormously. There is a fair amount of flex in the floor. You see it bounce a bit if you are heavy footed when walking. Obviously it would be difficult to replace the ply without removing the kitchen. But with the kitchen stretching 7 meters long (L shape) with a composite worksurface and glass splashback throughout + a large island - impossible.

Does anyone else agree with this? Can I negate the effect of the PVA somehow?

Though not guaranteed, I was encouraged to hear Doug's thought on my option 2 with the ditra mat for extra support. Now I am very concerned again. As it stands, would anyone recommend lifting the tiles and replace it with an engineered wooden floor?

Dave & Phil, I know I shouldn't have to pay for any of this, but trying to get the builder back to do anything has been close to impossible. I have considered going down the legal route but having spoken to a number of friends and other people who has had problems with builders - the consensus is it's not worth the bother. No one i have spoken to has ever got anything money back from the courts.

What to do, what to do........my dream kitchen is now a nightmare.

Sukie I said that ditra would help negate lateral deflection that is the sideways movements. Ditra will not add extra support for vertical deflection ie "bounce" and that if vertical deflection was present, even with ditra it would still lead to tiles debonding.

 

[Sukie666]

Doug, that was understood but thanks for the clarification. Just that, having some hope was just better than none.

I know this is a tiling forum and I guess most would suggest retiling properly. But if I don't want to take the kitchen up completely, is replacing the tiles with a wooden floor my best bet? Anyone please?

thanks
Sukie.

 

[mikethetile]

its entirely up to you

fitting a wood floor is viable

 

[Sukie666]

Mikethetile, you said Karndean is another option - I thought like Amtico it requires the floor to be perfectly level and stable? I would be happy to use Karndean/ Amtico if we don't have to go through the same level of pain as retiling. Please advice.
Thanks
Sukie

 

[mikethetile]

it needs to levelled but will still cope with a small amount of deflection, your floorlayer could assess the deflection in the floor for you

likewise with the tiling , if you pm Dave he could ask a member near you to do a report for you

 

[Sukie666]

Mike, thanks - i'll look into it. Will probably go with the retiling still as most of the tiles will be reuable and I like them. Have to see how we can best do this and if the builder will actually come back.

Dave - could you please recommend someone in the SW London area to do an inspection?

Many thanks
Sukie

 

[doug boardley]

Sukie, I'd be surprised if you managed to salvage a decent percentage of the tiles to be honest.Cement based adhesive will be very tough to get off the tile backs without damage to them.