Out the window, I presume.
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Discuss Advice needed - poor workmanship? in the Canada Tile Advice area at TilersForums.com.
O
One Day
A word of warning - he could chase you for payment and technically you are or would be in breach of contract. You are 100% right to dispute the work though - it is shockingly bad.
Do you have legal advice as part of your home insurance? Or access to a solicitor?
At the very least, talk to citizen's advice who will give you proper advice so you don't end up HAVING to pay him now, and then go to the massive ache of having to try and reclaim costs from him.
At this point, try to get everything in writing and save all communications in case you need them later on!
Do you have legal advice as part of your home insurance? Or access to a solicitor?
At the very least, talk to citizen's advice who will give you proper advice so you don't end up HAVING to pay him now, and then go to the massive ache of having to try and reclaim costs from him.
At this point, try to get everything in writing and save all communications in case you need them later on!
K
Karen79
Thank you for your advice, this is exactly what I am worried about! I have already contacted Citizen's advice and they explained that as the work has not been finished and to an acceptable standard, reasonable care and skill has not been used, therefore the plumber is in breach of contract. However, if I withhold payment technically I am also in breach of contract as well. They said ultimately only a judge can decide if it comes to that and we cannot agree amicably on a suitable resolution.
I have written a detailed letter today explaining all the issues we have with the work, also included photos showing some of the defects. I have put in the letter that we have offered him the opportunity to come and finish the work and put right the defects but he has declined and suggested we source another tiler. I have also stated in the letter that I offered him the chance to appoint an impartial and competent tiler himself to come and look and give his opinion on whether the work can be rectified without a total refit to which he also declined. This way it shows that we are trying to mitigate our losses. I have explained that we are not intentionally withholding payment and that the agreement we had was that payment would be on completion of the work and the work is still incomplete. I also reminded him that our contract is solely with him and not the subcontractors as he has asked for part payment so that he can pay them. I have asked him to respond within 14 days to the letter and will send it off tomorrow via recorded delivery. From now on I am only willing to communicate via letter so that it can be evidence in court (apparently emails are not acceptable).
K
Karen79
I really don't know!! I know that we have an RCD fuse box so I assume so but I know nothing about electrics at all! Thing is, he says the work has been signed off on Part P Building regs but we have seen nothing to confirm this yet. I will have to get this looked into. Thanks for pointing it out.
K
Karen79
Would you mind explaining to me what this is? This is what concerns me about the work, I can only comment on the tiling as I can clearly see that the work is shoddy. I know nothing about electrics, plumbing or building work etc so for all I know it could be hazardous! Very worrying really, especially as I have nothing to show the electrical work has been signed off. I also have no idea what adhesive he used and the quality of the work behind the tiles either. I know though that he has put the floor tiles down onto plywood as that is on the invoice. However having looked into this it seems that was another mistake he has made. Am I right in thinking floor tiles need to go onto aquaboard or something similar?
K
Karen79
Pic No 3......above the toilet
Agreed, that part is a real eyesore, it's the first thing we noticed actually it is really obvious. Regardless what happens that part of the tiling has to come off anyway as the tiling pattern he has used is not brick effect which is what we asked for. He's done brick effect on 2.5 of the walls and then for some reason changed to a different pattern in that area?
K
Karen79
This is pretty much what I have written in the letter I've put together today which I will send via recorded delivery tomorrow. We have offered both the opportunity to rectify the work himself as well as to source a different tiler of his choice but he has declined both and suggested we source a tiler ourselves. I've confirmed that in the letter. He is still asking for payment to pay off the subcontractors so I've stated that our contract is with him and not them. What a nightmare situation :-(
K
Karen79
Just looked at invoice, he has used 2 sheets of 6mm ply, not sure whether it is outdoor quality, it doesn't say?
T
Tile Shop
outdoor quality or not. 6mm shouldn't be used as it just follows whatever flex is already in the floor. As above, needs to be 15mm minimum.
He should have gone for a more suitable cement board such as Hardie Backer. You "might" be "lucky" and "get away with it" if the subfloor is rigid enough, but its not a professional approach and goes against the British Standards code of practice. Keep your eye's peeled for hairline cracks and loose tiles if the tiles are going to stay down, but the advise would be to rip it up and do it properly.
He should have gone for a more suitable cement board such as Hardie Backer. You "might" be "lucky" and "get away with it" if the subfloor is rigid enough, but its not a professional approach and goes against the British Standards code of practice. Keep your eye's peeled for hairline cracks and loose tiles if the tiles are going to stay down, but the advise would be to rip it up and do it properly.
Anything can look okay from far enough away!
Threads like this always turn into multi trade bashing.
This guy's a crap plumber and a crap tiler.
No way would I even attempt to make good - BIG can of worms and it will never look as it should. So sorry that you have found yourself in this position.
Threads like this always turn into multi trade bashing.
This guy's a crap plumber and a crap tiler.
No way would I even attempt to make good - BIG can of worms and it will never look as it should. So sorry that you have found yourself in this position.
Paul Russell
TF
Proper cowboy work..my 2 year old could do better..feel sorry for customer.
C
Concrete guy
With regard to the payment situation. The Law likes to use the term "reasonable" when to comes to payment and withholding money.
You have what appears to be a useable bathroom, not particularly well finished but at least serviceable to a degree.
From a legal standpoint it is important that you are seen to be reasonable should this eventually go legal.
Withholding the entire payment is not reasonable, however making a part payment being accompanied by a snagging list detailing exactly what needs to be rectified is reasonable. Once this work has been completed then the balance is payable.
The percentage is down to you to figure out and I guess would also be effected by the products supplied. i.e. if the suite was supplied by the plumber then it would be unreasonable not to pay for items supplied as you now have the items. However if this is a labour only situation then I'd be inclined to withhold say 50% or so. Taking this position strengthens your case considerably.
You have what appears to be a useable bathroom, not particularly well finished but at least serviceable to a degree.
From a legal standpoint it is important that you are seen to be reasonable should this eventually go legal.
Withholding the entire payment is not reasonable, however making a part payment being accompanied by a snagging list detailing exactly what needs to be rectified is reasonable. Once this work has been completed then the balance is payable.
The percentage is down to you to figure out and I guess would also be effected by the products supplied. i.e. if the suite was supplied by the plumber then it would be unreasonable not to pay for items supplied as you now have the items. However if this is a labour only situation then I'd be inclined to withhold say 50% or so. Taking this position strengthens your case considerably.
D
Dumbo
I agree with what you are saying about looking reasonable in front of the court and the fact she has a serviceable bathroom and goods supplied . But I believe the remedial work will cost more than the job value in the first place so the customer is left trying to reclaim that money back from the plumber who wosrt case scenario is a plc or llp and wraps up his business and is trading the next day under a different name.
K
Karen79
I have just got off of the phone with the plumber, he has has received my letter and wanted to discuss how we can move forward. He said he did not want things to get messy and was hoping we could sort things out amicably between us and reach an agreement that is fair.
I then explained that the cost of rectification is most likely going to cost around the same as his final invoice and then we have to buy more tiles as well so we are most definitely going to be out of pocket, I asked him what he thought was fair under those circumstances? After much discussion he has agreed to walk away with nothing and has said he will confirm this in writing as I said that I was not willing to have anything done to the bathroom by someone else until we have reached an agreement officially. I said I wanted to cover my back so that he cannot try and make a claim against me further down the line once the evidence is gone.
To be fair, he was very apologetic and said that he was really sorry for all the inconvenience he has caused. If I do get confirmation from him in writing that he is happy to walk away and "draw a line in the sand" as he put it, then I will consider myself extremely lucky on this occasion and ensure that I am more careful when choosing tradesmen in the future!! I really do hope he is not trying to pull a fast one somehow but surely if I have a letter from him saying he is happy to walk away without payment then that would stand up in court if he did ever try to chase payment from me?
Might as well have laid the tiles on cardboard ,no good whatsoever
Congratulations looks like you have a good result in the bag. If the dispute had gone to court there was no guarantee of such a favourable outcome. The fact that the guy has the decency to apologise suggests that he was not the out and out cowbody some have branded him. Rather someone lacking the skill and knowledge required to complete the works to achieve customer satisfaction. In any case it is worth exercising caution until you see the contents of his letter.
Paul Russell
TF
Made up for you hun.
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